Comments on Men vs. Sports: Real Men's Sports

Funny that you mention music because, now that I t...

2009-10-28T15:15:15.921-07:00

Funny that you mention music because, now that I think about it, it's kind of the opposite. I find that many people seem to have less passion for music as they age. I'm not one of those people but many of the people I know, some of which are on this blog are less engaged with music than they were when they were 20. An issue worth exploring in MVC perhaps?

You just reminded me of how much I like Brett Favre. I'll have to tune in to the Vikings this weekend.

So why is football more popular in the US than &qu...

2009-10-28T14:27:49.028-07:00

So why is football more popular in the US than "other football"? I agree that media is chicken or egg to some degree but some media decisions are made very strategically, not as simple reflections of interest. Surely its obvious that weaker products can win out with better marketing.

If you interpret the "conservative emotion" part of Klosterman's statement as violence I see what you're coming from. But I don't think its what he means. The conservative part is the culture, as embodied by Brett Favre's old-school, damned your risk-reward calculations and talkin, I'm going to hurl this ball as far and hard as I can then have a macrobrew and not overthink things. Modern characters: self-promoting, flashy, tweeters are mocked endlessly. Cultural simplicity, not violence is the conservative part that appeals. Klosterman does a good job fleshing out the strategic liberalism but doesn't succeed at the (more difficult) description of conservative football culture. So interpretation on that side of his statement is understandable.

I agree that there are really two issues here:

1.Increased interest in sport over time.

2.Why football is the sport of choice?

It sounds like Klosterman might think only football fits the interest over time thing, at least for him, since thats all he explores here. He could perhaps make the same case for music or TV or whatever he is obsessed with. You're saying its not football necessarily, but interests in general, for the majority sex involved in football.

As I said before, I think you may have a point about men and obsession. But thats a universal characteristic, right? It applies to any hobby as much as watching football.

I'm focusing on what (i think) Klosterman is exploring - what about football, specifically, regardless of age or sex makes it so increasingly popular. He is after all, a POPULAR culture writer, or to use your apt, if not dated, adjective "MTV". The part about age is just a passing explanation for his personal experience with football, but ultimately his hypothesis is much wider (than his own experience) and applies to something more specific(football - unique to American culture).

The liberal/conservative elements involved are an interesting contrast. Consider the subdivision of football fans. Many choose either college football or the NFL but not both (some choose high school too). Perhaps for practical reasons (not devoting entire weekends to passive sport observation) or perhaps theres something to Klosterman's theory in why people like one type of football and not the other. Afterall, the NFL and college have different mixes of strategy and violence. The difference might be enough to turn off one person and on another. The NFL is more violent - simple physics with bigger and faster athletes, plus more experienced defenders who are less likely to make mistakes that lessen the number of collisions. The NFL is also less strategic (as illustrated by the source of most strategic innovations and the relative schematic homogeneity in the NFL). Perhaps it says something about you if you choose one over the other. I suspect though, its just a function of what your newspaper covered when you were a kid or what your friends or loved ones take interest in.

I don't consider myself in camp C. I'm mu...

2009-10-28T13:17:41.091-07:00

I don't consider myself in camp C.

I'm much more in the camp of violence/strategy than I am in the camp of aging and cycle of life. My point about aging is that men are much more prone to obsessing out on single interest or hobby. This becomes especially true as they get older. The porn part was a joke.

But the basis of American interest in general comes down to the violence/strategy thing. As for you saying that you like Klosterman's liberal mind / conservative heart argument better than the violence/strategy mix argument, I don't see how they are any different. Klosterman says "Football allows the intellectual part of my brain to evolve (strategy), but it allows the emotional part to remain unchanged (violence/war). It has a liberal cerebellum (strategy) and a reactionary heart (violence/war)."

I'm saying it's as simple as that and no more explanation is needed. Except for the possible addition that aging men are prone to obsess out more and more on their interests. But the initial interest doesn't have anything to do with age. That is, growing interest in our country is an entirely different thing than growing interest within Klosterman as he gets older.

I think that violence/strategy is reason enough to explain it's popularity in the vacuum of our own country. As for it being a particularly American interest, I don't think there is anything in the nature of the sport that makes it more appealing to Americans. I don't think that there is anything in soccer that makes in unappealing to Americans in particular.

I think of media hype as interrelated more than a driving causal force. It aids in snowballing but isn't the main reason that a sport becomes popular. The media promotion/coverage wouldn't be growing each year if it weren't for the fact that it's increasing promotion/coverage was paying off because of the strength of the product.

Sounds like JGW is firmly in camp C - Klosterman&#...

2009-10-28T12:36:52.792-07:00

Sounds like JGW is firmly in camp C - Klosterman's growing love of football is inherent to aging and the cycle of life. I'm not sure I buy that, and I certainly don't buy it as rationale for cyclical interest in porn.

First off, old men watch more porn? I have no insight on this matter, unfortunately. Anyway, even if they do, I think, like teenagers the rationale is probably pragmatic more than a sign of cyclical interest. When too young and too old your chances for sexual gratification with real live attractive women is small, so you look elsewhere. Its not an intellectual choice like entertainment. I doubt Hugh Hefner is watching more porn these days... As for indie flicks or other "challenging" forms of entertainment and a narrowing of interest with age, I think JGW's hypothesis might have some validity. But the question remains: why sport (in general) and football (in particular) and not some other pursuit or hobby?

Klosterman isn't alone here. Football is getting more and more popular with each passing year. Why?

The violence/strategy element is probably the most common explanation of football's popularity, but I'm not sure I buy it. (Nor do I think Klosterman is arguing that.) I'm sure boxing/MMA fans would argue there is a good deal strategical underpinnings to the blood and bruises. Chess-boxing? Rugby? Hockey? There seems to be no shortage of violent and strategic games. Given that american football's massive popularity is limited to this country you have to assume there is something reflected from nation's collective psyche that values this particular mix of violence/strategy. Most countries are much more interested in soccer, cricket, baseball, or some other minimally violent yet still quite strategic game. (Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are the only other countries I can think of that take such disproportionate interest in violence in their "national pastime".)

I also disagree that one of Klosterman's main points is to contrast the levels of diversity in interest with growing age between men and women. I don't necessarily disagree with the point, but I don't think its Klosterman's or really that pertinant to his growing interest in football. I suspect that there are many more women, just as men, in this country are far more interested in football now than were 20 or 50 years ago. Football's more popular with males so savvy ladies are going to know that this interest will appeal to potential mates. Does the same desire for intermixed violence and strategy apply to American women? I don't think so.

I think the main reason is social and media influence. For both men and women.

I like Klosterman's liberal mind / conservative heart argument a lot better than the violence/sport mix argument. Its far more interesting - digging deeper than the simple inclusion of violence - and universal - it can be extended to explain other countries rabid sports cultures.

Americans are most passionate about a sport whose basic and fundamental characteristics seem to be changing far more rapidly than in other sports. Yet, while other countries are far more liberal in culture and politics, Americans love a game that is always on the move. Perhaps this is the result of our relative lack of history and more rapid rate of national change. We value bigger, better, newer, while Europeans, say, place more emphasis on continuity and preservation. Maybe if football gets too comfortable and established with its rules it will fall by the wayside just as baseball has done?

This MTV writer is basically making two observatio...

2009-10-24T09:57:53.952-07:00

This MTV writer is basically making two observations which have been said many times by writers before (other than that segue about his wife, which Bill Simmons and every male comedian has made many times before):

1. football is so well liked because it's what we like about gladiatorial combat mixed with what we like about chess. It satisfies our carnal desire to see physical violence while also satisfying our desire to think strategically and second-guess the coach. While it doesn't do one better than boxing or UFC and it doesn't do the other better than debating foreign policy, it does a mix of the two better than anything I know, with the exception of maybe real battlefield strategy, of which I'm no Napolean.

2. As a funny general sweeping statement, Men are especially prone to obsess out on something. It gets worse and worse the older they get until they're 60 and do the same 3 things every day for the rest of their years. Women have a way of keeping their interests balanced and often try new things, especially if their kids are into them. Whereas, ever since I started homebrewing, have been reading about it, listening to podcasts about it, and buying equipment for it, to the point that my wife can only shake her head.

Epistemz, I assume that one of the big reasons is ...

2009-10-24T09:43:27.536-07:00

Epistemz, I assume that one of the big reasons is the same reason we really like Chutes and Ladders as kids and then end up abandoning it in favor of chess or scrabble later in Life. Mixed with the reason we watch less porno now than we did as teenagers, only to drop the independent think film as old geezers and pick up the porno watching again.

I enjoy watching EMU play as long as it's on Thursday. I'll watch any two college teams play on Thursday, especially at the beginning of the season. My wife, however, enjoys watching every single game with me, in the alternating hours when she's not asleep. My dad tells me I'm very lucky for this, but it's not like I won her in a lottery or something. That may have been one minor reason why I got to like her, right?

Very interesting sociological question, to be guid...

2009-10-24T08:39:44.637-07:00

Very interesting sociological question, to be guided theoretically by Bourdieu's idea that cultural tastes derive from class background.

Why do sports preferences change over the lifecourse?

I liked posting it this way and edited a little bi...

2009-10-23T20:17:42.381-07:00

I liked posting it this way and edited a little bit to raise the possibility that it was written by one of us. I agree with most of it though I actually have almost no interest in watching EMU play someone...

I suspect the answer is b : media influence.

I was disappointed that that was a quote.

2009-10-23T16:26:54.689-07:00

I was disappointed that that was a quote.

as someone who has attended the eastern michigan u...

2009-10-21T18:17:27.100-07:00

as someone who has attended the eastern michigan university, i can empathize with the wife.